President Milanović on his bid to run for a second term: Croatia should be shielded from Plenković encroaching on all institutions

On Friday, 5 July, the President of the Republic Zoran Milanović gave an interview for RTL Danas in which he discussed plans for his second presidential term, his speech at the NATO Summit in Washington DC and whether his agreement related to SOA is a turnaround in his relations with the Prime Minister. Adrian De Vrgna spoke with the President.

You didn’t become prime minister so you announced that you are running for a second term on Pantovčak. Why?

For a hundred reasons. I told you in that interview when you asked me why I was running for prime minister, which all the Opposition parties at the time at least tacitly supported, no one was against. I said I’m not going to sit idly here.

At this very table.

It was a call to action. So, you can’t just sit idly. Because at that moment nothing else could be done. And that was a call to action. In the end, the government is formed by the one who has enough, not the one who has the most by any criteria. Of course, if there is no absolute majority. The majority of voters, a significant majority of voters, most certainly voted for Plenković to leave. He stayed. And now we have presidential elections. Should I have resigned? Had I resigned, Croatia would not have a president now or maybe it would already be going to the polls at presidential elections, and I, the SDP, Možemo! or the Homeland Movement would not form the government.

Is Pantovčak therefore a kind of consolation prize in this whole story?

It’s not a reward, nor have I ever looked at it in the sense of accumulated transactions, to grab something, some candies, cakes, cream puffs, something in front of me. It is a duty and my decision to run once again is a decision motivated by my previous experience, seeing what is happening in Croatia, the need to shield Croatia from Plenković encroaching on all institutions, and on all the obstructions of the Constitution, avoiding meetings of constitutional bodies for coordinating foreign policy and national security, the last time it was at the end of 2021. I would like to thank those who have supported me so far, above all the SDP. This is the party that of course is closest to me in terms of values ​​and in every other respect. There are also some others, the HSS, the Reformists. If there are more, they will be welcome.

Do you fear candidates from the HDZ? If, let’s say, they designate Miro Gavran to be your opponent?

You yourself said now that he is in the HDZ? Is that a slip or something, but they claim he is not. But he essentially is.

He said that he isn’t a candidate for now, but there are speculations.

First of all, I will not do any free or any kind of propaganda to those who are candidates or who are undercover candidates.

So you don’t care who is at the other end?

You know what, it’s a bit rude to say it doesn’t matter and it’s all a trifle. It’s not. But on some level it doesn’t really matter. So I know who I am, what I am. I have experience. I have knowledge no one else has, either, and that is very important. But it doesn’t have to be crucial. In the end, the one with the most votes will win.

You had a slogan, President with character, what do you offer voters now?

My slogan was slightly longer, but you and almost everyone I talk to who follow politics have forgotten it. One part was left out. A president with character, Croatia with an attitude. It was even on all the posters, Croatia must have a stand. It doesn’t have one right now. Plenković and above all Plenković, because there are no others, copies and transfers automatically. So, as a kind of offset, everything that is said in Brussels. There are no objections. We never oppose anything. It doesn’t mean that we have to always or often, but never really. And that is one of the reasons why those non-orthodox parties are winning in Europe, some of which are really extreme, some in smaller numbers, the hard right, but most of them are actually protesters who don’t accept a Europe in which a handful of bureaucrats decide on behalf of all citizens in Brussels. Today Orban went to Moscow. Orban like Orban, a specific, spectacular character in his own way and he shouldn’t have done it in my opinion, although he was in Ukraine the day before. This is just a short illustration. I guess he should have gone there. Then he went to Moscow. Even if he shows that he is the only one who can talk to both sides, he can’t actually represent the European Union. And Charles Michel, Plenković’s friend and a former colleague of mine, was right about this today.

Would you have gone to places like Orban? Neither Kyiv nor Moskow?

I wouldn’t go to Moscow for a number of reasons at the moment, but Orban wants to show that he is the only one who can talk to both sides. Quite an interesting message! However, this applies to the president of the European Commission, who was not elected by anyone, in any election, and let’s say she goes to Israel on behalf of the European Union to support Israel in this terrible conflict which is not simple and certainly not only one side is to blame. Who does she represent? No one. Herself. One group of people. So this is true for Europe today. In that Europe today, unfortunately, we are led by people and a man who is indeed close to that team up there, that’s our destiny.

And what can you do from the position of President of the Republic except to speak publically about it?

What does the Constitution say? The Constitution clearly states that the President of the Republic and the Government of the Republic of Croatia shall cooperate in shaping and implementing foreign policy. What is happening in Croatia? Another important reason why I have to stand up to this violence is that the Prime Minister has privatized everything. Everything is his, privately his, not of the HDZ.

There is no cooperation at all?

Isn’t it common knowledge that government bodies haven’t met for years? Thanks to his obstruction.

You managed to agree on some things.

Yes, yes, what? I accepted one of the ambassadors he proposed for Belgrade in 2020. In good faith with no intention of trading. However, there are regulations. There are decisions. There is a practice by which these decisions are made. In five years we have not changed one single ambassador or consul.

I am interested to know whether your involvement in the parliamentary elections is in some sense a defeat, because the fact is that you invited everyone to go against the HDZ, and that did not happen in the end, Plenković became prime minister again. Did that reduce your chances for a new term on Pantovčak?

It did not, but I’m the one saying that. Do you think it did?

Do you regret it? Did you do anything wrong in that regard? Did you need that?

If I had resigned some people, some really wanted that, some plotted and suggested it in order to create chaos because chaos was not created. Whatever the Constitutional Court writes, it is not prohibited by the Constitution and as long as it is written like this, it will not be. Anyone who wants to write the Constitution privately in a private workshop can do so. Currently, some people in the Constitutional Court are doing that. They have never objected to Plenković’s violations of the Constitution, which have been numerous, countless over the past five years, but you asked me something else.

I asked you, and we know about the Constitutional Court that there are people whom you appointed too. Did that reduce your chances? That was the question.

I made a mistake.

You made a mistake?

No, no, you ask me, did I regret not doing something.

Do you regret it?

No, there is no room for regret. This is not a sentimental, emotional relationship.

And you would do the same thing again?

It’s never the same. Circumstances are always somewhat different. Let’s say, when someone brings a lowlife to head the State Attorney’s Office. A man who should have stopped being a judge a long time ago, but neither I or Plenković as prime ministers can do that, you can’t remove him from those positions, then what you can do is the path leading us to the SOA, a topic that surely interests you and certainly part of the public. Therefore, you can’t not react to it. So, you can’t fire someone, but you can prevent that person from moving on and progressing through responsible action and prevention. The case of Turudić – everything is clear – what happened, what offenses he committed. The fact that he lied before the parliamentary committee is a sin, but a much greater sin is that he secretly met with suspects against whom proceedings were conducted before his court, and despite all that, and after I confronted him with this, Plenković made the decision he made. There is no rest there. You simply have no choice.

On whose support are you counting?

Citizens. But of course the SDP too as the major party of the Croatian left centre to which I belong. Which is close to me in terms of values ​​and programme for the most part. In the vast majority, but not necessarily always and every time in all matters, but also so that I am not robbed. Quite openly. I know whom I’m dealing with.

What about from the right?

I don’t divide people that way, left and right. As before, when it comes to me, there will always be some overlapping and intertwining of people who, on the so-called left-wing people who hold something against me and people who are so-called on the right-wing, because people are first of all people, citizens. A small number of people are involved in politics in an organized manner.

You touched on the support of the SDP. After Grbin, the likely leader of the party is Hajdaš Dončić. At least for now. Would he be your choice too?

No one would be my choice, they have to choose. I was president for almost ten years. I led that party in a transformational way, it was extremely strong. In the HDZ, it doesn’t matter whether the president is Karamarko or Plenković. I mean, the results show that. It’s all the same.

What about the others?

This is important for the SDP. I’m not saying that I was the one, I certainly was the reason behind the party’s results, and I wasn’t the only one. So, some mitigating circumstances benefit those who succeeded me and why they might not have been able to achieve the same results. However, in the SDP it will be important and it will be important who the leader is. We will see whom they choose, and the rest is up to them. After all, I am not a member of the party.

Do you believe that this HDZ and DP government will last the entire mandate with Plenković at the helm?

Plenković finally has someone, whatever you think about these people, I know some of them, I had good personal relations with them, maybe I still do, I don’t know. However, for the first time he has someone who, if he wants, can be a barrier to his total arbitrariness. That man does what he wants, when he wants, how he wants. He appoints the last suspicious types to the most responsible positions where decisions on human rights are made. Everyone who voted for this should reconsider, ask themselves and think once again about what they have done. They pass laws that put the fear of God into journalists, even if they are not enforceable in terms of effective sanctions. An atmosphere of fear and the omnipotence of the state and one man are created.

All you are saying doesn’t really bother the Croatian voters because we have confirmation, after the parliamentary elections and Plenković, we again have a situation of six HDZ mandates in the European elections.

That’s correct, and with a turnout of 20 percent, which is appalling in European terms. You have parts of Croatia such as Međimurje, which probably had the highest turnout in the parliamentary elections, but did not turn out in the European elections, 17 percent of voters turned out. That’s a message. HDZ, I say, doesn’t matter who leads it. I have never condemned people and citizens who vote. It doesn’t occur to me, but it doesn’t matter if it’s Tomica Karamarko or Plenković, two completely different characters. Therefore, it is important that those who want rule of law, who want shared responsibility, and not the omnipotence and tyranny of one man, because that is what Croatia has started to turn into. But let me finish with him now. He’s rather not be here, but elsewhere. He would rather be in some high post in Brussels. High by his criteria. What he can take, which is one of the places in the European Commission, I was able to take in 2014. He wanted to be much more important. He wanted to be the president of the European Council. Every child knows that.

How do you know that? If he wants it, if he wishes it, he can?

Have you seen this, I mean this escapade with dividing the mandate of the President of the European Council in half.

You think they’re keeping that post for him?

It’s not being kept for him. It’s not being kept for anyone, it’s being kept for the socialists, for the European democrats and the party of the European socialists, which is the second strongest party in the elections, with 140 mandates. So, one cannot do without the other, and now the People’s Party would like to give another five years to an unelected Ursula von der Leyen, that is by far the most powerful function, and the one, which is actually protocol and visible, they would divide in half. So everything to us, nothing to you.

You have to cooperate. This temporary agreement regarding Markić and the appointment of a deputy does not mean that there has been a turnaround.

The Constitution says that they cooperate in design and implementation. We have huge disturbances in the world, invisible until now, unseen not invisible, unfathomable. We don’t have any bodies, the Government usurps everything. We vote in the Assembly, the UN General Assembly, on the resolution on Palestine, that is, on the resolution on Palestine, on a ceasefire in Gaza, the Government instructs the representative to vote against. I mean, sometimes it’s not bad to be alone. That doesn’t mean it’s true. The truth is not always that clear. But exactly on that issue, and in what way, in such a way that it is decided behind my back. This is unconstitutional conduct. It’s not good, it’s very bad and there is no cure when someone has a seal and money, because then you have unchanged diplomats looking at their employer, which is formally Zrinjevac. And people don’t want to get involved, they withdraw into themselves. The personal terror of one person and his closest collaborators is carried out, and you have a situation where, contrary to the Constitution which says that they cooperate in shaping, in what the content will be and how it will be implemented. There is no first and second. And they do a dirty job, not even behind your back, but in your face, because they know that you can only talk. Well, I will talk.

Otherwise the SOA, and we have to come back to that. Today, I signed after several months of tension, as usual with Plenković, after Plenković signed, I co-signed the decision on the appointment of a deputy. It’s a position that has been open according to law for almost 20 years, it has never been filled. And you remember that Plenković refused to appoint a deputy. I asked for a deputy on account of the Turudić case because I assessed, I saw that everything was not done properly, and I didn’t want to put personal responsibility on, let’s say, Daniel Markić. My assessment is that this was not the case, but some things have to change.

Now it has been resolved temporarily.

Markić will now be appointed acting director for two months. He is going to an international organization. He has been going for the last year. I know this because I had a part in it and spoke with some of the highest officials in international organizations, so it went once and a second time. It didn’t work the first time. His second term was coming to an end, he is good and I was willing to let him serve another term if necessary, but with a deputy. Plenković refused and wrote to me on March 12, the man gives me lessons in law, regarding the appointment of a deputy director, I would like to point out that the prescribed procedure is somewhat different. It does not describe. You don’t need to quote the law, you are trusted, because the initiator is the SOA director. The proposal formally comes from the director of the SOA. However, of course, this proposal must be agreed upon beforehand. I remind, therefore, that the director of the SOA, who therefore needs to be appointed beforehand, can’t be acting in any way. Here, the deputy was appointed today. Who proposed it, acting. So, that man has total contempt for the law and the rules. This is what he wrote to me and published and now he can, you see how complicated it is.

With what kind of attitude are you going to Washington?

I’m going to Washington and I will be on my guard. And as the president of Croatia with an attitude, not Croatia which is a parrot with special needs, that has to be whispered what to repeat, that does not have its own attitude, that doesn’t at all advocate with available means for the status of Croats in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Not at all. That could change now because Plenković no longer has any reason to expect anything in Brussels. Now I expect him to do something. With the attitude of a state that does not want to be involved in these conflicts. It should not be, the Croatian Parliament has already rejected it once. I hope that there will be no need to argue again whether Croatia will participate in logistics, in forwarding. As far as I am concerned as Commander-in-chief, I believe that the majority of people in the Parliament, now the majority, will not. And I think that Plenković understood what the message was.

How did you mark these four years?

I have already spoken about this, fighting for the rights and the protection of Croatian institutions.

That will be your legacy of your first mandate?

I protected the army, that is, the army and the security system from being taken over by one group of people, one party. When Plenković says that some kind of quid pro quo was achieved, a favour in return for a favour, we give you the General Staff, that’s what he said. He referred to some non-existent conversation with Minister Anušić. There is neither, or was there, there will never be a conversation on that level. I only talk to Plenković and very precisely. According to the pre-arranged protocol, you also send me a message that you want to take it over all together, that it is all yours. It won’t go like that. So, while I’m here, I will stand up to it, because when you choose the chief of the General Staff, you have strictly formal conditions that only a few people fulfil. In this case maybe three. It must be a general. So you look right away, you just cross out. Who is that? And there are three.

Why is it so difficult to reach an agreement, that is, you want to say that it is Plenković who is obstructing everything. Is there any responsibility of yours?

I will dare to be so direct. No, not at all. I am in favour of cooperation with people about whom I have no opinion. However, this is being obstructed because he has the money and the seal.

But you didn’t convene, that is, you didn’t want a session of the National Security Council, the HDZ will say, Plenković will say as an argument?

And what will you say? Let’s try to structure this a little. So, I once said ad hoc that I don’t think that at this moment there is an urgent need to convene the National Security Council, but of course that body should function. The director of the SOA has great autonomy in his work, very great and in fact he is not supervised on a daily basis. And that is why it is incredibly important when choosing such people that they are not bums like in some systems. And secondly, it can be many people according to formal criteria. Let’s say, there are no legal obstacles for you to be the director of SOA tomorrow. Do you understand?

These must be people with impeccable moral characteristics and work ethics. At least if we see this with good eyesight we have no reason to doubt such people. Lozančić was like that. It seems to me that with this departure, Markić can be satisfied with himself and can have inner peace. There were some omissions, but they are minor and we are talking about them publicly. So, the system works, it is not contaminated like the one I took over as prime minister in 2012. That required someone like Lozančić back then. A man outside of the system in the strict sense of the word, a man outside all parties, a Croatian emigrant. Politically, certainly more right than left.

Mr. President, there are more topics to cover, we will talk for sure. Thank you very much for being a guest of RTL Danas.

Thank you!